'Deadman's Island' map hoax and Cerris Francis' claims debunked

[Carl-NC]

There are only two maps that are important, the China Sea Map and the signed Deadman Island map

The China Sea map is the only one I was asking about. Do you see any similarities between the China Sea map and the Rainbow Island map?

 

[Oak Island Sage]

[ the facts as I see them]
Right. Meaning facts you see that are not supported by fact.

[ neither Kidd or Ware were expert map makers or even needed to be, it was drawn on velum placed on a table, and it was created from memory without the benefit of a birds eye view.]

Allegedly Kidd signed one. As opposed to the second Ware unsigned one. Nothing suspicious there. Well a water mark perhaps. The Deadman map was a Collaboration of Kidd and Ware on a table says you. Key word table?
You saw them draw both maps or is it the unproven improved facts as you envision them yet again?

John Ware – Pirate | Ware

Hi releventchair, table, desk or any flat surface what does it really matter, aren't you being a bit pernickety. We were not there when the Deadman Island map was actually drawn, so we can only speculate on some things. If however some things drawn on it and are still there that indisputably it lends considerable credence to its authenticity, and that it was drawn and signed by Captain William Kidd in1699.
Anything that written or drawn by someone often reflects the writers opinion or interpretation of what he or she has learned either from first hand experience, or from what he or she has simply read somewhere. This source was based on the previous opinion and interpretation of someone else, so with out the advantage of possessing a time machine we all have to rely on is the personal opinion and interpretations of people who have long since passed.
We can however each apply logic and probability with our own interpretation of some historical records and accounts and conclusions, and that is what I have tried to do in my book and it is my own hypothesis. Yes I too have read many books to formulate my story, but in addition to that I have at least been to Oak Island, Mahone Bay, and met previous owners, and talked turkey with the current ones.
The things I have identified as depicted on the Deadman island map are on Oak Island, or at least some were still there in say 1940 before the extensive searchers excavations. The shafts, boreholes and tunnels that have been excavated in the Money Pit area alone amount to approximately eight hundred and no treasure has ever been found. The reason for this failure is quite simply, it's because the treasure is actually still located some distance away securely stored in a subterranean repository, (see CAD).
Of course I offer no conclusive proof or even a shred of evidence to support my claim of this outrageously theorised network, and consequently my unsubstantiated claims should naturally be totally discounted by those intelligent people who are legendary researchers Like Cryptid1990 .

Oak Island Sage

 

[Oak Island Sage]

The China Sea map is the only one I was asking about. Do you see any similarities between the China Sea map and the Rainbow Island map?

Hi Car-NC, the short answer to that is this, the "Rainbow Map" is clearly an extensively altered copy of the authentic "China Sea" map, and it's a total waste of your time pursuing.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Cryptid1990]

I used to collect vintage board games, and thought I had seen something a bit similar to the Deadman's Island map.

The following is a map from a pirate/Treasure Island themed 1920s board game made by The Chad Valley Games Harborne.

Both maps are named Dead-Man's Island, have a "Lookout Hill" and nearby anchorage sign.

 

[releventchair]

Hi releventchair, table, desk or any flat surface what does in really matter, aren't you being a bit pernickety. We were not there when the Deadman Island map was actually drawn, so we can only speculate on some things. If however some things drawn on it and are still there that indisputably it lends considerable credence to its authenticity, and that it was drawn and signed by Captain William Kidd in1699.
Anything that written or drawn by someone often reflects the writers opinion or interpretation of what he or she has learned either from first hand experience, or from what he or she has simply read somewhere. This source was based on the previous opinion and interpretation of someone else, so with out the advantage of possessing a time machine we all have to rely on is the personal opinion and interpretations of people who have long since passed.
We can however each apply logic and probability with our own interpretation of some historical records and accounts and conclusions, and that is what I have tried to do in my book and it is my own hypothesis. Yes I too have read many books to formulate my story, but in addition to that I have at least been to Oak Island, Mahone Bay, and met previous owners, and talked turkey with the current ones.
The things I have identified as depicted on the Deadman island map are on Oak Island, or at least some were still there in say 1940 before the extensive searchers excavations. The shafts, boreholes and tunnels that have been excavated in the Money Pit area alone amount to approximately eight hundred and no treasure has ever been found. The reason for this failure is quite simply, it's because the treasure is actually still located some distance away securely stored in a subterranean repository, (see CAD).
Of course I offer no conclusive proof or even a shred of evidence to support my claim of this outrageously theorised network, and consequently my unsubstantiated claims should naturally be totally discounted by those intelligent people who are legendary researchers Like Cryptid1990 .

Oak Island Sage

"Treasure" research isn't a pudding comprised of bits from every fictionalized and or sensationalized tale ever encountered. That is opposite fleshing facts out of a lead and if no fact exists in a lead then describing it to ones self as a lead not proven. Even yet as opposed to using a mallet to fit a puzzle piece that doesn't fit. Which bodes ill for the spot the piece belongs anyways.
Non factual non truths are not the evidence to invest further feet on the ground or prospecting/ test sampling from.

Unsubstantiated claims are just that. No lead required , just rehash hash and elaborate.
A volume of them equate to: fiction.

Kidd &Co, were not digging a private Mordor.
Fences were usual and ships not unnoticed. Let alone clandestine in divesting of cargos.
What matters the form of stolen goods more than possession?
Same with post attempts to collude in their disposal.
A foundry /refinery of any risk beyond bribing the owner or a simple blast furnace easily abandon would be a step above simpler wholesale disposal to friendly governors, sponsors , marque providers and more.
If you steal from the French why try to sell them back what you stole in another form?
Who would care in England if an item in their possession was known French?
Yet no one should notice an extensive island workings ; or ships to and fro from it or question the traffics cargo manifests?
You acquired a dozen unmarked gold bars from whence?

Cryptid is on his own hook. I have no problem with that and doubt he much cares my posting here. He's able to state either way.
If I asked I'd suspect Cryptid would agree the two maps differ enough that the first signed and second not signed disagree enough to insult the credibility of either when trying to insist one leads to outlandish unproven claims that even Oak Island authorities (some people obsessed with their own fetched ideas amidst actual "operations" ) discard as too over the top. Despite the great lack of evidence beyond that very non original fiction bastion of , " it could have happened".

Did Lafitte privatize an island and secure it with a structure? Yes.
Did a family member associate with foundry work? Indeed.
Was a ship used for transportation? Twas.
Were plundered goods divested of? Of course.
Did a very labor , time , material , risk, intensive pirate sponsored human ant farm with enough hazards to risk the lives of all below on any given day result?
It could have!


.

 

[releventchair]

New Providence Island.
Flip it over and put high ground back in place for a Deadman's.

 

[Cryptid1990]

We can however each apply logic and probability with our own interpretation of some historical records and accounts and conclusions, and that is what I have tried to do in my book and it is my own hypothesis.

Except it demonstrably is not. Nothing in your book is original and your own idea or hypothesis. As I already pointed out:

This is a baffling claim considering your book is primarily rehashing far-fetched/pseudoarchaeological ideas about Oak Island:

1. Your book starts with the assumption there is a treasure buried (concealed underground) on Oak Island.
2. Your book links this treasure (for which there is no evidence) to Captain Kidd and/or Captain Avery.
3. Your book argues this treasure could have come from the Knights Templar.
4. Your book argues Captain Kidd traveled to Oak Island.
5. Your book argues for manmade underground vaults where treasure was transported and hidden on Oak Island.

These evidence-free ideas have been around for many decades.

What exactly are you claiming is your "own hypothesis"? The idea Kidd/Avery buried treasure on Oak Island has been around for many decades, so too have far-fetched claims of manmade underground vaults with booby traps. It is all idle speculation at best. There is no evidence to support it and a mountain of evidence against, for example, we know with very high probability where Kidd traveled to, from historical records such as ship logs, letters, trial testimonies, etc. None of these sources mention he traveled to Oak Island or Mahone Bay.

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Car-NC, the short answer to that is this, the "Rainbow Map" is clearly an extensively altered copy of the authentic "China Sea" map, and it's a total waste of your time pursuing.

Oak Island Sage

You mind to elaborate that claim? Do you agree that at least he discovery of the maps was a hoax? What else would you base you "clearly" on? Seriously we do research here and that means claims need to be supported by facts.

 

[TruthbeTold]

​

Great job in debunking yet another purveyor of fiction attempting to sell their fictional books!

 

[Oak Island Sage]

"Treasure" research isn't a pudding comprised of bits from every fictionalized and or sensationalized tale ever encountered. That is opposite fleshing facts out of a lead and if no fact exists in a lead then describing it to ones self as a lead not proven. Even yet as opposed to using a mallet to fit a puzzle piece that doesn't fit. Which bodes ill for the spot the piece belongs anyways.
Non factual non truths are not the evidence to invest further feet on the ground or prospecting/ test sampling from.

Unsubstantiated claims are just that. No lead required , just rehash hash and elaborate.
A volume of them equate to: fiction.

Kidd &Co, were not digging a private Mordor.
Fences were usual and ships not unnoticed. Let alone clandestine in divesting of cargos.
What matters the form of stolen goods more than possession?
Same with post attempts to collude in their disposal.
A foundry /refinery of any risk beyond bribing the owner or a simple blast furnace easily abandon would be a step above simpler wholesale disposal to friendly governors, sponsors , marque providers and more.
If you steal from the French why try to sell them back what you stole in another form?
Who would care in England if an item in their possession was known French?
Yet no one should notice an extensive island workings ; or ships to and fro from it or question the traffics cargo manifests?
You acquired a dozen unmarked gold bars from whence?

Cryptid is on his own hook. I have no problem with that and doubt he much cares my posting here. He's able to state either way.
If I asked I'd suspect Cryptid would agree the two maps differ enough that the first signed and second not signed disagree enough to insult the credibility of either when trying to insist one leads to outlandish unproven claims that even Oak Island authorities (some people obsessed with their own fetched ideas amidst actual "operations" ) discard as too over the top. Despite the great lack of evidence beyond that very non original fiction bastion of , " it could have happened".

Did Lafitte privatize an island and secure it with a structure? Yes.
Did a family member associate with foundry work? Indeed.
Was a ship used for transportation? Twas.
Were plundered goods divested of? Of course.
Did a very labor , time , material , risk, intensive pirate sponsored human ant farm with enough hazards to risk the lives of all below on any given day result?
It could have!


.

Hi

"Treasure" research isn't a pudding comprised of bits from every fictionalized and or sensationalized tale ever encountered. That is opposite fleshing facts out of a lead and if no fact exists in a lead then describing it to ones self as a lead not proven. Even yet as opposed to using a mallet to fit a puzzle piece that doesn't fit. Which bodes ill for the spot the piece belongs anyways.
Non factual non truths are not the evidence to invest further feet on the ground or prospecting/ test sampling from.

Unsubstantiated claims are just that. No lead required , just rehash hash and elaborate.
A volume of them equate to: fiction.

Kidd &Co, were not digging a private Mordor.
Fences were usual and ships not unnoticed. Let alone clandestine in divesting of cargos.
What matters the form of stolen goods more than possession?
Same with post attempts to collude in their disposal.
A foundry /refinery of any risk beyond bribing the owner or a simple blast furnace easily abandon would be a step above simpler wholesale disposal to friendly governors, sponsors , marque providers and more.
If you steal from the French why try to sell them back what you stole in another form?
Who would care in England if an item in their possession was known French?
Yet no one should notice an extensive island workings ; or ships to and fro from it or question the traffics cargo manifests?
You acquired a dozen unmarked gold bars from whence?

Cryptid is on his own hook. I have no problem with that and doubt he much cares my posting here. He's able to state either way.
If I asked I'd suspect Cryptid would agree the two maps differ enough that the first signed and second not signed disagree enough to insult the credibility of either when trying to insist one leads to outlandish unproven claims that even Oak Island authorities (some people obsessed with their own fetched ideas amidst actual "operations" ) discard as too over the top. Despite the great lack of evidence beyond that very non original fiction bastion of , " it could have happened".

Did Lafitte privatize an island and secure it with a structure? Yes.
Did a family member associate with foundry work? Indeed.
Was a ship used for transportation? Twas.
Were plundered goods divested of? Of course.
Did a very labor , time , material , risk, intensive pirate sponsored human ant farm with enough hazards to risk the lives of all below on any given day result?
It could have!


.

Hi relevantchair, you are entitled to your opinion, it's simple that I don't agree with it, shall we leave at that?
Oak Island Sage

 

[Oak Island Sage]

You mind to elaborate that claim? Do you agree that at least he discovery of the maps was a hoax? What else would you base you "clearly" on? Seriously we do research here and that means claims need to be supported by facts.

Hi Bocaj, I have no interest in in pointless arguments regarding what maps were faked, there is a vital clue on several versions that I look for but I am not about to share what that is unless I get a call from the currents searchers.

If you want my opinion on how to proceed then just stick with the China Sea map and the signed Deadman Island, and accept my reasons for doing this which I have already stated, or alternatively just believe what you will.
Just for the record, in about 2004 I outlined my theory to Paul Hawkins that Captain Kidd and Captain Every were secret partners, and together they sought investment in the seventeenth century colonies for the construction of a covert mine beneath Oak Island, he got the suggestion of a secret collusion - from me. and he adapted it for his own hypothesis.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj, I have no interest in in pointless arguments regarding what maps were faked, there is a vital clue on several versions that I look for but I am not about to share what that is unless I get a call from the currents searchers.

If you want my opinion on how to proceed then just stick with the China Sea map and the signed Deadman Island, and accept my reasons for doing this which I have already stated, or alternatively just believe what you will.
Just for the record, in about 2004 I outlined my theory to Paul Hawkins that Captain Kidd and Captain Every were secret partners, and together they sought investment in the seventeenth century colonies for the construction of a covert mine beneath Oak Island, he got the suggestion of a secret collusion - from me. and he adapted it for his own hypothesis.

Oak Island Sage

If you followed the discussion regarding the RI maps you would know that I kept the question of what is original and what copy open. So it isn't pointless as you claim. But I wait to see something but statements from you. Neither the Every Kidd collusion nor your calling the RI map a copy is sustained by any argument o your side. In both cases I did research and posted it here. What I can see regarding Deadman Island is that you simply ignore the very valid arguments done by many posters here. You do not provide any counter arguments but but simply state "I know". Which isn't helpful especially promoting any of those ideas and frankly contributes to the image that all research into Kidd and his claim is not to be taken serious.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Even in the late 17th century, it would take a mighty incompetent cartographer to get things that wrong. Not just the shape of the island (most notably, a completely missing South Shore Cove), but the surrounding islets and features. They are all plainly wrong.

But the most damning evidence is in the profile view. That is what you would literally see from the ship's deck. And it is completely wrong in every way. A mountain in the swamp!


That's called an "alibi." You can use it to explain away every single discrepency, at least the ones you haven't explained with fanciful stories.

What you call an alibi is merely your own opinion on what you can't agree with.
Oak Island Sage

 

[Oak Island Sage]

If you followed the discussion regarding the RI maps you would know that I kept the question of what is original and what copy open. So it isn't pointless as you claim. But I wait to see something but statements from you. Neither the Every Kidd collusion nor your calling the RI map a copy is sustained by any argument o your side. In both cases I did research and posted it here. What I can see regarding Deadman Island is that you simply ignore the very valid arguments done by many posters here. You do not provide any counter arguments but but simply state "I know". Which isn't helpful especially promoting any of those ideas and frankly contributes to the image that all research into Kidd and his claim is not to be taken serious.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Hi Bocaj, sorry but I have already stated my opinion concerning the Rainbow Island map, and I don't wish to elaborate on that, or, enter into any discussion regarding it that might descend into arguments.

Oak island sage.

 

[Cryptid1990]

This is attitude precisely why the treasure of Oak Island was not retrieved by me in around 2002, and that reason partially applies even today. This persistent dogmatic attitude constitutes the real "Curse of Oak Island", and if the present searchers don't call me very soon the treasure will probably never be found.

Oak Island Sage

I guess people have different opinions what the "curse of Oak Island" is. For me, it is the fact people like yourself are rehashing far-fetched and pseudoarchaeological ideas from decades ago, devoid of evidence and lacking critical thinking. I looked at recent books published on Oak Island this year, virtually all of them are saying the same thing as you - there is a treasure hidden on Oak Island by pirates or Templars and there are manmade underground vault or tunnels on the island. 😴

 

[Oak Island Sage]

I guess people have different opinions what the "curse of Oak Island" is. For me, it is the fact people like yourself are rehashing far-fetched and pseudoarchaeological ideas from decades ago, devoid of evidence and lacking critical thinking. I looked at recent books published on Oak Island this year, virtually all of them are saying the same thing as you - there is a treasure hidden on Oak Island by pirates or Templars and there are manmade underground vault or tunnels on the island. 😴

Hi Cryptid1990, you said quote, "There is a treasure hidden on Oak Island by pirates or Templars and there are manmade underground vault or tunnels on the island" I couldn't have put it much better myself.

There are currently more than sixty books written about Oak Island and most of them have that basic theme, but of course you are going to offer something totally different to everybody else right.
If it contains more of your usual (personally adjudged to be indisputable) evidence it's probably going to be a best seller - as a cure for insomnia.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Oak Island Sage]

You mind to elaborate that claim? Do you agree that at least he discovery of the maps was a hoax? What else would you base you "clearly" on? Seriously we do research here and that means claims need to be supported by facts.

Hi Bocaj, I have no wish to argue with you or elaborate on any of my claims, just believe what you want, time alone will show what is fact and what is fiction.
Oak Island Sage

You know you're having a bad day when even your creative fiction writing gets disproven.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Even in the late 17th century, it would take a mighty incompetent cartographer to get things that wrong. Not just the shape of the island (most notably, a completely missing South Shore Cove), but the surrounding islets and features. They are all plainly wrong.

But the most damning evidence is in the profile view. That is what you would literally see from the ship's deck. And it is completely wrong in every way. A mountain in the swamp!


That's called an "alibi." You can use it to explain away every single discrepency, at least the ones you haven't explained with fanciful stories.

Hi Carl-NC, so any logical statement that contradicts your personal opinion is - an "alibi", from my experience people who say disparaging things like this have some sort of hidden agenda. Nice try, a bit obvious though.

Except it demonstrably is not. Nothing in your book is original and your own idea or hypothesis. As I already pointed out:


What exactly are you claiming is your "own hypothesis"? The idea Kidd/Avery buried treasure on Oak Island has been around for many decades, so too have far-fetched claims of manmade underground vaults with booby traps. It is all idle speculation at best. There is no evidence to support it and a mountain of evidence against, for example, we know with very high probability where Kidd traveled to, from historical records such as ship logs, letters, trial testimonies, etc. None of these sources mention he traveled to Oak Island or Mahone Bay.

Hi Carl-NC, you said and I quote, "The idea Kidd/Avery buried treasure on Oak Island has been around for decades". really! now perhaps you would care to prove that declaration.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj, I have no wish to argue with you or elaborate on any of my claims, just believe what you want, time alone will show what is fact and what is fiction.
Oak Island Sage

Time? Really? If you take time as your base then surly Oak Island is by far the worst of all treasure searches. Without any results!