Oak Island Treasure Revelations

[chalkoutline]

The attach diagram shows the perimeter of the Dunfield dig in green. The center of his dig is off screen lower left.
The till near the upper right would be worked till but at the center it seems it would be original till.

Google AI also says this...
A 100-foot vertical shaft requires supporting walls regardless of the soil type, except in the case of stable rock

 

[Carl-NC]

and the east side of Oak Island might have looked different in their time, it is because it is constantly open to storms

Apparently all those storms moved the mainland from the east side of the island to the west. That's quite impressive.

The great subterranean network of shafts (see CAD in my book) required hundreds of logs for its construction. For two years many logs were cut by Henry Every's men in a stockpile at Campeachy Bay, this located in the great Bay of Mexico.

So they cut logs in Mexico and hauled them all the way to OI instead of cutting logs locally? They don't sound too bright.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Apparently all those storms moved the mainland from the east side of the island to the west. That's quite impressive.


So they cut logs in Mexico and hauled them all the way to OI instead of cutting logs locally? They don't sound too bright.

Hi Carl-NC, On the contrary cutting hundreds of logs in Campeachy Bay would not have raised any suspicion, but if they cut those trees anywhere near Oak Island it would draw unwanted attention to the covert operation underway there.
This flood tunnel protected facility was constructed to convert miscellaneous item of gold and silver (contained in arriving treasure laden ships) into coinage or bars.
Oak Island Sage

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Hi Carl-NC, On the contrary cutting hundreds of logs in Campeachy Bay would not have raised any suspicion, but if they cut those trees anywhere near Oak Island it would draw unwanted attention to the covert operation underway there.
This flood tunnel protected facility was constructed to convert miscellaneous item of gold and silver (contained in arriving treasure laden ships) into coinage or bars.
Oak Island Sage

Carl-NC, what you call the mainland as depicted on the Deadmans Island map is actually located several mile away on the far east side of Mahone bay. On the map Kidd writes "Here ye Spaniards cut Logwood, If you look at a current map of Mahone Bay you will see that the location is actually called Meisner point, and on Kidd's map just above that appears to be a river or estuary, its there I've seen it. Further up north along the real mainland coast you arrive at East River Bay which again is shown on Kidd's map. The reason for Kidd to add apparently pointlessly and irrelevant information to his treasure map is strange, it might be that he had stolen stored Spanish logs for use on Oak Island. I hope this clears up your confusion.

Oak Island Sage

 

[Oak Island Sage]

This continuing preoccupation with the ‘who’ of Oak Island just leaves me cold. I note that it’s a big thing with The Curse of Oak Island crew - maybe because they’ve got very little else to plug into.

What interests me is the ‘where’, because I sure as hell can’t convince myself that anyone sensible would put a treasure deep in the Money Pit, advertise its location to all comers then make it so that if anyone digs there it becomes near-impossible for anybody to recover it, including those who put it there.

Where’s the sense in that? So, if there’s a treasure on Oak Island it may well be somewhere else. Find the where and you’ve got the ‘what’, if it’s still there. This would provide clues as to the ‘who’ and ‘when’, and maybe even ‘how’ things were done.

Cerris’s thoughts cover not just the ‘who’ but also the ‘where’. That’s why he’s suggesting that the Laginas may well be advised to take note, though he doesn’t actually specify where to look in his book.

So, I’m not at all fussed about who he thinks did it, I’d like to know whether the Laginas are sufficiently convinced that it might be worthwhile testing what Cerris is suggesting concerning the ‘where’ of the matter. And that would mean looking and potentially digging, which is to say actually testing a new locational hypothesis.

From my research, the process of cribbing used at the time is as follows...

Method 1: You dig a hole and stack prefabricated frames the size of the shaft on top of each other.

As digging continues, the cribbing keeps moving down and a new prefabricated frame is placed on top.

Method 2: Another method used...after digging a hole, precut logs were lowered down and the frame is built in the bottom of the shaft, and stacked on top of each other before they are pinned in place. They continued digging down, framed the next section and pinned it in place.

Platforms for both methods were attached inside the cribbing to allow largest possible opening to traverse the shaft and lift and lower buckets.

In both cases, the weight of the cribbing rests on top of each other making difficult to remove from the bottom up. So if someone wanted to hide their shaft they'd remove the top 10 or 20ft, lay a platform across the top and fill with dirt. They would never think about removing the cribbing because of danger and effort envolved.

This is the same method used by Chappels shaft shown in the picture i attach earlier in this thread.

Could someone have used another method? Maybe.
Lets suppose they dug down 10ft and laid a platform into the sides of the hole and then cribbed the sides resting on the platform. This would imply the platform covers the entire hole, so how would they get below the platform to dig deeper.
I guess you'd have to cut an opening in the middle.
Since the shaft was 12ft in diameter, how big can you make the hole. 3ft, 4ft square?
A bigger hole means you need to re-enforce the platforms.

So lets say they did this. its a lot of effort and danger to remove the wall cribbing and replacing cut logs for the opening with full logs.

Ive never cribbed a shaft and i had a hard time finding out how they cribbed before 1800 so if some knows more or finds my description wrong, you will in no way hurt my feelings.

With regards to the 4x2.5 tunnel, i don't know but i can only make one comment...they used cribbing to get down there to find it.

One last thought...how did dan blankenship stack those tanker cars when he dug 10X? I think Method 1 was used.

Maybe Old Sage can tell us since spoke to dan.

H i chalkoutline
First of all can we consider my take on the construction of the Money Pit. It was never excavated to hold treasure of any kind, however its real function was vital to the protection of accumulated treasure contained in the repository.
In the original construction of the Money Pit no cribbing was used at all, what they first did was to dig down ten feet and then they used 6" x 14ft pre-cut logs that were fitted into 1ft niches it the walls of the twelve foot wide shaft. Pot bellied stoves were in constant use and old reports say the walls of the shaft wee very hard as if baked, this prevented cave ins. Although the upper levels were used as sleeping quarters it is quite possible that the little iron stoves were continually used on log platforms right down to the bottom. When the flood tunnels, that ascended from the shaft to Smiths Cove and The South Shore these would later covey sea water. There was another usually forgotten tunnel at 133 ft that headed up to the west, it later brought sea water from the west through other intersected flood tunnels and linked shafts, (see the CAD in my book) The lower platforms up to about the fifty ft were dismantled and hauled up to the surface. This meant that there was a a roughly seventy ft space below as intended, this because because the Money Pit was simply the deepest Sand Sump beneath Oak Island. If it is allowed and someone wants to display the CAD illustrated in my book I will explain further.
I cannot say anything about Bore 10X except it was not part of the original subterranean System and it nearly killed Dan.

Oak Island Sage

 

[chalkoutline]

H i chalkoutline
First of all can we consider my take on the construction of the Money Pit. It was never excavated to hold treasure of any kind, however its real function was vital to the protection of accumulated treasure contained in the repository.
In the original construction of the Money Pit no cribbing was used at all, what they first did was to dig down ten feet and then they used 6" x 14ft pre-cut logs that were fitted into 1ft niches it the walls of the twelve foot wide shaft. Pot bellied stoves were in constant use and old reports say the walls of the shaft wee very hard as if baked, this prevented cave ins. Although the upper levels were used as sleeping quarters it is quite possible that the little iron stoves were continually used on log platforms right down to the bottom. When the flood tunnels, that ascended from the shaft to Smiths Cove and The South Shore these would later covey sea water. There was another usually forgotten tunnel at 133 ft that headed up to the west, it later brought sea water from the west through other intersected flood tunnels and linked shafts, (see the CAD in my book) The lower platforms up to about the fifty ft were dismantled and hauled up to the surface. This meant that there was a a roughly seventy ft space below as intended, this because because the Money Pit was simply the deepest Sand Sump beneath Oak Island. If it is allowed and someone wants to display the CAD illustrated in my book I will explain further.
I cannot say anything about Bore 10X except it was not part of the original subterranean System and it nearly killed Dan.

Oak Island Sage

Baking the walls is an interesting approach but here is what google AI says...
No, baked clay (even hardened polymer clay) cannot reliably support log platforms without cribbing

Keep in mind oak island is clayish till and not clay according to Dunfield it is even less likely baked clayish would support log platforms.

 

[chalkoutline]

Baking the walls is an interesting approach but here is what google AI says...
No, baked clay (even hardened polymer clay) cannot reliably support log platforms without cribbing

Keep in mind oak island is clayish till and not clay according to Dunfield it is even less likely baked clayish would support log platforms.

Also, i understand 1ft notches in the wall of a 12ft wide shaft would require 14ft logs...can you explain they actually put in the logs?
How big are the platforms you're talking about?

 

[chalkoutline]

Baking the walls is an interesting approach but here is what google AI says...
No, baked clay (even hardened polymer clay) cannot reliably support log platforms without cribbing

Keep in mind oak island is clayish till and not clay according to Dunfield it is even less likely baked clayish would support log platforms.

I thought I remembered baking the walls well constructing wells but not according to Google AI...

The method of "baking" clay to harden it in a well setting is not a known historical or modern well-digging technique.

 

[releventchair]

H i chalkoutline
First of all can we consider my take on the construction of the Money Pit. It was never excavated to hold treasure of any kind, however its real function was vital to the protection of accumulated treasure contained in the repository.
In the original construction of the Money Pit no cribbing was used at all, what they first did was to dig down ten feet and then they used 6" x 14ft pre-cut logs that were fitted into 1ft niches it the walls of the twelve foot wide shaft. Pot bellied stoves were in constant use and old reports say the walls of the shaft wee very hard as if baked, this prevented cave ins. Although the upper levels were used as sleeping quarters it is quite possible that the little iron stoves were continually used on log platforms right down to the bottom. When the flood tunnels, that ascended from the shaft to Smiths Cove and The South Shore these would later covey sea water. There was another usually forgotten tunnel at 133 ft that headed up to the west, it later brought sea water from the west through other intersected flood tunnels and linked shafts, (see the CAD in my book) The lower platforms up to about the fifty ft were dismantled and hauled up to the surface. This meant that there was a a roughly seventy ft space below as intended, this because because the Money Pit was simply the deepest Sand Sump beneath Oak Island. If it is allowed and someone wants to display the CAD illustrated in my book I will explain further.
I cannot say anything about Bore 10X except it was not part of the original subterranean System and it nearly killed Dan.

Oak Island Sage

What in the heck? You're assigning a high budget and free shipping of lots of iron stoves and pipes?

Please detail stoves pipes or chimneys used. To draw (allow air to flow upward and not backwards through stove) Their routing to surface without burning wooden floors or sleepers above has to exceed the level of the highest affect on drawing ability. (above the ridge of your home. Not below it.)
Getting a stove to burn required oxygen. Now you need intakes. Not theory of a tunnel providing air. Actual evidence oxygen was supplemented.
Take a swing at 100 foot in clay depth volume of oxygen in a tunnel with wooden floors at multiple intervals.
Now we are starving stoves for oxygen what happens next? What are you using for lighting back when that doesn't also need oxygen? Who would be in a 30 foot hole under such conditions? A 15 foot hole?
Goodluck hiring despite the big budget and stove toting labor.

Heat rises. No need for stoves at each level. Smoked humans above regardless.
Gas sinks to lowest level. Well diggers and miners would be waving good bye if you insisted on running a stove in a tunnel bottom. Bottom. Least oxygen. Who's feeding oxygen to the diggers at the bottom? How? What does history indicate of well diggers during the era you would claim anyone dug 100 foot in clay?
There is a well dug through clay tale elsewhere.
Upon returning in the morning it's digger found it had collapsed shut from the instability.
Yet you believe clay walls were hardened by heat?
Don't neglect the humidity level of clay as far as clay exists wicking to the drying area. And that tempering is also needed for clay to retain integrity when fired. Fired meaning serious heat. Compared to a hot stove in a tunnel the clay would need to be in the firebox in a good bed of coals type hot.
Poor quality clay only dried is not what you'd want to use for holding a tunnel wall.


The stain from hearths lasts for eons.
Unless your stove burners hauled all ash and debris out of a given tunnel it is still there.
Why remnants of multiple stoves are not documented ; suggests your stoves were removed?


.

 

[Carl-NC]

Yeah, we've discussed the folly of putting a stove down a 100-foot hole. But considering these guys were hauling logs 2500 miles from Mexico, maybe they were just that stupid.

 

[robertk]

Yeah, we've discussed the folly of putting a stove down a 100-foot hole. But considering these guys were hauling logs 2500 miles from Mexico, maybe they were just that stupid.

Perhaps they bored holes down the center of the logs, attached a fan to one end, lit the other, and dropped it in the hole. As long as the logs were 100 ft long, the fan would still be on top and could push fresh air down there for the fire at the other end.

But then of course the log wouldn't fit in the stove at the bottom, so why even have a stove?

And also they didn't have fans.

Umm... OK, I got nothin'.







(in case it isn't obvious.... no, I'm not serious.)

 

[chalkoutline]

I thought I remembered baking the walls well constructing wells but not according to Google AI...

The method of "baking" clay to harden it in a well setting is not a known historical or modern well-digging technique.

I took a look at making bricks...
Sun baked bricks are made with clay, water, sand and organic material then baked in the sun. Without the sand, the brick will crack during drying. Drying can be sped up at 350 degrees (i.e., pot belly stove) but it doesn't make stronger just faster. Once the brick is dry it can support a couple hundred pounds.

The strength comes from the sand according to Google AI.

Yes, adding sand to sun-baked (adobe) bricks generally increases their strength and durability

Old Sage,
I haven't been able to find any information that indicates baking the walls with a pot belly stove would make the walls safe enough to support log platforms and the associated traffic in the shaft.

What is your source for this information?

 

[Oak Island Sage]

Baking the walls is an interesting approach but here is what google AI says...
No, baked clay (even hardened polymer clay) cannot reliably support log platforms without cribbing

Keep in mind oak island is clayish till and not clay according to Dunfield it is even less likely baked clayish would support log platforms.

The old records said the walls in upper levels of the shaft were very hard, if they were used as sleeping quarters during the harsh winter months that is not impossible. I only speculated that Pot Bellied Stoves could have also been used at lower levels to harden the walls, if that is not feasible then I have no problem with that. If it suits you to believe they cribbed down to about the 180ft that's ok with me. They cut a long niche into the shafts wall 1ft at an angle to create a twelve foot wide horizonal ledge that would support the log platform. They repeated this process down to the bottom level, but it must be considered that the logs could have been longer and the ledge deeper.
Some logs were removed to allow access to the level below via a short ladder, and it provided room to lower heavy logs by chain down to the bottom levels, and removing spoil and sometimes the chain broke. Dozens of pot bellied stove were not required, perhaps no more than ten were used anywhere on the island, Fred Nolan found one on his property and charcoal and wood ash was found in the Money Pit.

Oak Island Sage

 

[chalkoutline]

The old records said the walls in upper levels of the shaft were very hard, if they were used as sleeping quarters during the harsh winter months that is not impossible. I only speculated that Pot Bellied Stoves could have also been used at lower levels to harden the walls, if that is not feasible then I have no problem with that. If it suits you to believe they cribbed down to about the 180ft that's ok with me. They cut a long niche into the shafts wall 1ft at an angle to create a twelve foot wide horizonal ledge that would support the log platform. They repeated this process down to the bottom level, but it must be considered that the logs could have been longer and the ledge deeper.
Some logs were removed to allow access to the level below via a short ladder, and it provided room to lower heavy logs by chain down to the bottom levels, and removing spoil and sometimes the chain broke. Dozens of pot bellied stove were not required, perhaps no more than ten were used anywhere on the island, Fred Nolan found one on his property and charcoal and wood ash was found in the Money Pit.

Oak Island Sage

If they cribbed the vertical shaft, then the platforms would have been integrated with or attached to the walls from the inside because the walls are holding back the dirt.
IOW, there is actually no need to dig niches for log platforms.

Although the walls are cribbed 10 to 12' at time, each section ends up resting on top of each other and eventually settles on ground of the final level so removing the cribbing is extremely dangerous because it potentially be carrying the entire weight.

According to Google AI...
Removing cribbing from a vertical shaft is only safe if a permanent, self-supporting structure has been installed and has reached adequate strength

The use of permanent structure refers to well digging where you remove the cribbing and replace it with stone walls.

For non-well shafts the cribbing is left in place. To hide a shaft, they would remove the top 10 to 12', cover the opening with a log platform and fill the rest with dirt.

So I'll ask again for your source because something doesn't sound right?
What exactly are these "old records "?
Newspapers, captain log, first hand accounts?
Where did you find these records?
Are they local to the area? Or in an archive in another country?
Are you sure the shaft you are describing was dug on oak island because "hard ground" doesn't match that of OI?
Could it be it a different island?

I still contend...if the story told by the boys is true, they would have found the remains of a fully cribbed shaft and not log platforms every 10ft.

 

[chalkoutline]

If they cribbed the vertical shaft, then the platforms would have been integrated with or attached to the walls from the inside because the walls are holding back the dirt.
IOW, there is actually no need to dig niches for log platforms.

Although the walls are cribbed 10 to 12' at time, each section ends up resting on top of each other and eventually settles on ground of the final level so removing the cribbing is extremely dangerous because it potentially be carrying the entire weight.

According to Google AI...
Removing cribbing from a vertical shaft is only safe if a permanent, self-supporting structure has been installed and has reached adequate strength

The use of permanent structure refers to well digging where you remove the cribbing and replace it with stone walls.

For non-well shafts the cribbing is left in place. To hide a shaft, they would remove the top 10 to 12', cover the opening with a log platform and fill the rest with dirt.

So I'll ask again for your source because something doesn't sound right?
What exactly are these "old records "?
Newspapers, captain log, first hand accounts?
Where did you find these records?
Are they local to the area? Or in an archive in another country?
Are you sure the shaft you are describing was dug on oak island because "hard ground" doesn't match that of OI?
Could it be it a different island?

I still contend...if the story told by the boys is true, they would have found the remains of a fully cribbed shaft and not log platforms every 10ft.

BTW, i have not ruled out that log platforms could have been used for the first thirty feet; therefore, i am unable to disprove the original story of 1795.

However, i surmise the log platforms were used the hide a previous dug hole but not used while digging the hole.

 

[chalkoutline]

BTW, i have not ruled out that log platforms could have been used for the first thirty feet; therefore, i am unable to disprove the original story of 1795.

However, i surmise the log platforms were used the hide a previous dug hole but not used while digging the hole.

Here is another possible flaw in your theory.
According to Google AI...
Potbelly stoves emerged in the early 1800s as an evolution of earlier heating stoves like the Franklin stove


Franklin stoves were first designed and used around 1742 by Benjamin Franklin

Maybe its just a terminology issue but this seems to indicates that if the old record actually used potbelly stove then its not as old as you thought.

Can you atleast provide a date of the records used?

 

[Oak Island Sage]

If they cribbed the vertical shaft, then the platforms would have been integrated with or attached to the walls from the inside because the walls are holding back the dirt.
IOW, there is actually no need to dig niches for log platforms.

Although the walls are cribbed 10 to 12' at time, each section ends up resting on top of each other and eventually settles on ground of the final level so removing the cribbing is extremely dangerous because it potentially be carrying the entire weight.

According to Google AI...
Removing cribbing from a vertical shaft is only safe if a permanent, self-supporting structure has been installed and has reached adequate strength

The use of permanent structure refers to well digging where you remove the cribbing and replace it with stone walls.

For non-well shafts the cribbing is left in place. To hide a shaft, they would remove the top 10 to 12', cover the opening with a log platform and fill the rest with dirt.

So I'll ask again for your source because something doesn't sound right?
What exactly are these "old records "?
Newspapers, captain log, first hand accounts?
Where did you find these records?
Are they local to the area? Or in an archive in another country?
Are you sure the shaft you are describing was dug on oak island because "hard ground" doesn't match that of OI?
Could it be it a different island?

I still contend...if the story told by the boys is true, they would have found the remains of a fully cribbed shaft and not log platforms every 10ft.

To be honest I cant remember where I read that no cribbing was found it the Money Pit only log platforms because it was about twenty years ago, however I have found a copy of the renown book by RV. Harris entitled "Oak Island Mystery", his sectional view of the Money Pit it does not show any cribbing. If you ask Rick Lagina he probably has all the dusty old files that the late Dan Blankenship kept for many years in his filing cabinets down in his cellar.
Other than that if you can produce definitive evidence that cribbing was used in the Money Pit I will happily concede the point, if not shall we just agree to differ in our opinions.

Oak Island Sage

 

[ARC]

Yep... cribbing... often even called curbing... was definitely used for wells.

 

[Oak Island Sage]

To be honest I cant remember where I read that no cribbing was found it the Money Pit only log platforms because it was about twenty years ago, however I have found a copy of the renown book by RV. Harris entitled "Oak Island Mystery", his sectional view of the Money Pit it does not show any cribbing. If you ask Rick Lagina he probably has all the dusty old files that the late Dan Blankenship kept for many years in his filing cabinets down in his cellar.
Other than that if you can produce definitive evidence that cribbing was used in the Money Pit I will happily concede the point, if not shall we just agree to differ in our opinions.

Oak Island Sage

The description pot bellied stove came from a discussion I had with the late Fred Nolan, he claimed that when he moved a large boulder with his Back Hoe excavator underneath it he found the remains of a "pot bellied stove", it was his description. I can only suggest that either the miners used some sort of wood burning metal container in the Money Pit or they just lit a small fire on top of the clay covering that levelled out the rough surface of the logs in the sleeping quarters platforms The covering contained wood ash and charcoal and Coconut Fibres.

Oak Island Sage

 

[chalkoutline]

To be honest I cant remember where I read that no cribbing was found it the Money Pit only log platforms because it was about twenty years ago, however I have found a copy of the renown book by RV. Harris entitled "Oak Island Mystery", his sectional view of the Money Pit it does not show any cribbing. If you ask Rick Lagina he probably has all the dusty old files that the late Dan Blankenship kept for many years in his filing cabinets down in his cellar.
Other than that if you can produce definitive evidence that cribbing was used in the Money Pit I will happily concede the point, if not shall we just agree to differ in our opinions.

Oak Island Sage

Sorry, if i didn't make myself clear...
1. There is NO definitive evidence that cribbing was used; only log platforms.

2. The the clayish till on oak island as documented by Dunfield, will NOT safely support the cutting/digging of niches into the shaft walls to support 14ft long logs for the platforms.

3. The walls CANNOT be baked in order to harden/strengthen them to support 14ft logs for the platforms.

4. Cribbing MUST be used to dig a vertcal shaft down to 100ft.

5. If the dispositors DID use cribbing while digging the shaft, the platforms to traverse the shaft would be on the inside of the shaft attached to the wall cribbing that is holding back the dirt.

6. If the depositors DID use cribbing, the wall cribbing is holding back the dirt so the depositors would NOT even have access to the dirt behind the wall cribbing to cut/dig niches for the 14ft long logs.
And there is no need to because they are using cribbing.

7. Since there is NO definitive evidence the depositors used cribbing, they would have had to have removed all of the cribbing while placing log platforms every 10ft as they filled the shaft.

8. Cribbing MUST be removed from the bottom up BUT it CANNOT be removed because the bottom cribbing carries the load of ALL the cribbing above it,
The only time cribbing is removed is when digging a well. The cribbing is replaced with stone walls/support as it is removed. The stone walls then carry the load

9. To close a vertical shaft, the top 10 or 20ft of the cribbing gets removed and the shaft opening is then covered and filled in with dirt.

Conclusion: if the depositors dug a 100ft deep shaft, they WOULD HAVE HAD to have used cribbing!

They could NOT have removed the cribbing.

Therefore, if the depositors DID use cribbing, then the Onslow company (1803) SHOULD HAVE found cribbing left behind by the depositors...NOT log platforms.